這個世界會好嗎？Has Man a Future? –Dialogues with the Last Confucian

作者簡介：梁漱溟，著名思想家、教育家、社會活動家。艾愷，美國哈佛大學博士，師從費正清、史華慈，當代最活躍、最有影響力的漢學家之一，芝加哥大學歷史系教授。

內容簡介：1980年美國漢學家艾愷采訪中國著名的思想家、哲學家、現代新儒家的早期代表人物梁漱溟的談話實錄，并由艾愷譯成英文；品評李大釗、陳獨秀、毛澤東、周恩來、蔣介石、胡適等風云人物，回顧了任教北大、從事鄉建運動、創建民主同盟等傳奇經歷。

My contact with Chiang Kai-shek我與蔣介石的來往

Alitto: You also had a lot of contact with him [Chiang Kai-shek], especially during the War of Resistance, and after it. You hadn’t met him prior to the war, had you?艾： 政治家蔣介石，您和他也有很多來往，尤其是在抗戰的時候、抗戰以后啊。抗戰以前，就沒有見過面吧？

Liang: No, because I never participated in government… I always worked in society.梁： 因為我始終是不參加政治，我始終在社會方面做事情。

Alitto: I know that in the 1930s, before the war, you didn’t seem to have a good impression of Chiang Kai-shek. I seem to recall that in your book The Last Awakening of the Chinese People’s Selfsalvation Movement, you compare Chiang with Yuan Shikai, saying that they were about the same, simply very successful warlords. I also remember that during the peace negotiations after the war you didn’t seem to like him very much, and blamed the continuation of the civil war on him. Did you make any other comments about him?艾： 我知道在 30年代，抗戰以前，您對蔣介石也沒有什么好的印象了。我記得您那個《中國民族自救運動之最后覺悟》書里面說，蔣介石是跟袁世凱差不多了，是軍閥，就是比較成功的軍閥了。也知道抗戰以后，和談、談判的那個時候，也印象很不好，覺得就是因為他內戰。另外呢，有沒有什么別的??

Liang: If we are going to talk about Chiang Kai-shek and me, we must start from an earlier period. I was in Shandong doing rural reconstruction at the time that Chiang was in Wuhan in what he called his Bandit Extermination General Headquarters. The “bandits” referred to the Communist Party. As he was stationing troops in Wuhan, he reorganized the Wuhan Provincial Government. He wasn’t very satisfied with the original administration, [so he] had Zhu Jingnong appointed as the Superintendent of Education for Hubei. Zhu had studied in the U.S., and had specialized in education. But Zhu was the president of Cheeloo  University in Jinan, Shandong. A church ran this university. He had to resign his position as president and then take up the position as Superintendent of Education. So, he went from Wuhan back to Jinan. Chiang asked him if he knew Liang Shuming. Zhu answered that he did know me. Chiang said, “When you go back to Jinan, ask him to come to Wuhan to meet me.” Zhu returned to Jinan and resigned his university presidency. He saw me in Jinan, and relayed Chiang’s invitation to me. I told him, “OK, I have the message.” But I didn’t go. I couldn’t bring myself to go just because he had sent someone with this one sentence. This was the first contact that I had with Chiang. 梁：談到我跟蔣，我要從頭說起了。還比較早的時候，我在山東做我的鄉村建設工作。剛好啊，蔣本人住在武漢，他叫做“剿匪總司令部”——“匪”嘛就是共產黨。因為他自己駐軍在武漢，他就把武漢省政府改組，原來的省政府他認為不大滿意，他就改組。改組嘛，他就用一個姓朱的，叫做朱經農，也是留美的，學教育的。他就改組湖北省政府，湖北省政府里頭有教育廳了，他就用這個朱經農做湖北教育廳廳長。可是朱呢，原來是在山東濟南做齊魯大學的校長，齊魯大學是個教會辦的學校，所以他需要辭齊魯大學校長，來接任湖北教育廳長，所以他就從武漢回濟南。回濟南的時候，蔣就對朱經農說：“你認不認識那個梁某某人呢？”朱說：“認識呀。”他說：“你替我說一句話，希望梁到武漢來跟我見面。”那么這個朱經農他回去，到濟南交卸齊魯大學校長，在濟南看到我，他就把蔣的話傳達給我。我說：“好，我知道了。”但是我不去，我不能夠因為他派人傳這么一句話，我就自己去呀，我不去。這是頭一次。

I had contact with him next in Nanjing, when the Second Interior Affairs Conference was held to discuss the internal affairs of the whole nation. The Ministry of Interior Affairs convened this conference. The Minister was a Guangxi native, Huang Shaohong. He was eager to adopt innovative and new programs and policies. He wanted to use measures superior to and also inclusive of rural reconstruction, which he called county government reconstruction. This would include the county level and the countryside below the county. At this conference he presented his plans. So he invited me and my colleagues working in Shandong, as well as Yan Yangchu, to attend as specialists this conference in Nanjing to help his program of county government reconstruction. So, because of this matter I traveled to Nanjing.后來，剛好在南京開第二屆內政會議，討論全國的內政，這個是歸南京的內政部召集的。這個時候內政會議的部長是廣西人，叫黃紹 。那么他很想辦一件新的，采取新的方針、新的政策，他就要搞在鄉村建設之上的、而又包含鄉村建設的，他叫做縣政建設——一個縣，縣以下是鄉村了，所以是縣政建設，縣政建設是包含鄉村建設的。所以他開這個內政會議要提出這個方案來，就把我們搞鄉村建設的人——也包含了我，包含了我們山東的朋友，還包含了晏陽初——都找到南京來，作為是一種專家，參加他那個內政會議，來把縣政建設的計劃搞好。這個時候我到了南京了，為這個事情到了南京了。

At that time, the mayor of Nanjing city was an old friend of mine. This man [Shi Ying], was a veteran, an old friend of Sun Yat-sen’s. He was old, quite a bit older than I. When only 19 years old, he won the Juren degree, and after that studied chemistry in England. Mr. Cai Yuanpei engaged him as a professor of chemistry at Peking University. He had helped Sun Yat-sen while abroad, an old friend of Sun’s. At the time he was mayor of Nanjing city, and also a friend of mine, since we had both been teaching at Peking University. Mr. Shi came to see me at the Central Hotel [where I was staying]. He said, “Chiang Kai-shek had wanted to meet you and you didn’t come. Now that you are already here in Nanjing, you must see him.” I answered that I would see him. Mr. Shi was mayor, so later he called Chiang’s secretary to arrange a time, the evening of a certain day. Mr. Shi came in his car to pick me up for the appointment at Chiang’s official residence. This was the first time I met Chiang Kai-shek.到了南京呢，這個時候的南京市的市長是我一個老朋友。這個人是老資格，他跟孫中山是朋友，歲數很大，比我們都大，他是一個在清朝已經中了清朝的舉人的，念那個老書啊，中了舉人的。中了舉人呢，年紀還很輕，他只有19歲，他又到英國去留學，到英國去留學，學化學；學化學回來之后，蔡元培蔡先生請他在北京大學做教授，做理科化學教授。他在國外很幫助孫中山，跟孫中山是一輩的老朋友。這個時候做南京市的市長，跟我也是朋友，我們在北京大學在一起。他到中央飯店、旅館來看我，他說：你既然到了南京了，以前蔣介石想跟你見面你不去，那你到了南京了，你不可以不跟他見面了。我說好，那么這個樣子他作為市長跟蔣的秘書、副官通電話，約好了時間，某一天的晚上，事先是坐著汽車接我一同到“委員長官邸”，去跟蔣見面。這個時候是我第一次跟蔣見面。

Even from the very outset, at this first meeting, I didn’t like him. Why? He was insincere and false. He had heard, he said, that I was very famous and had wanted to meet me. He wanted me to come see him, but I had been unwilling. This time Mr. Shi had made the arrangements and brought me to see him, and so on. How was he insincere and false? He held a pen in his hand—a fountain pen, and also a little notebook. When we were talking—naturally we were just talking at random—I do not remember how I happened to bring it up, that at the time the Jiangbei area—northern part of Jiangsu and part of Anhui—had suffered a great flood, and the damage was quite heavy. A friend of mine was doing relief work in the area. I just don’t remember how it came up but I did mention this man’s name and his work in disaster relief. As soon as he heard this, Chiang said, “Very good. What is the name of your friend?” He handed his pen and his notebook to me and said, “Write his name down.” Of course I wrote my friend’s name. It looked very insincere to me, a show of, as we say, “being modest and respectful before a scholar” [lowering oneself before the scholars]. It had the appearance of modesty and respect, of paying great attention to what I said. Sitting there and acting as though he didn’t hear the name clearly—so you “write his name down.” Actually, his secretary was sitting there in any case, he also wrote down the name. He didn’t have to have it written down for him. So, in general, this first meeting with Chiang left me with a very bad impression, and gave me the feeling that he was insincere and false.可一見面我印象就不好。怎么樣不好呢？就是他虛假。他以前聽說我很有名，想要和我見面，要我去我不想去。這次嘛，石先生陪著我來看他了，約好了見面了，他怎么樣子虛假呢？他就手里拿一個筆，也是自來水筆，手里拿個本子，談話的時候——當然隨便談了，我不知道我怎么樣子提起來，那個時候啊江北——江蘇北部，包括安徽——有水災，災情很重，我一個朋友就在那兒做救災工作，不知道怎樣提到這個事情。提到這個事情，我就提到負責救災工作的那個人的名字了，他就說：“哦？很好，你這個朋友叫什么名啊？”他把那個本子、筆遞給我：“你寫下來。”我當然給他寫下來了。他這個人就看出來有一種虛假，虛假就是“謙恭下士”，很謙恭的樣子：你的話我很注意，你說那個人名，你寫給我看。自己拿著本子、自己拿著筆，好像聽不清楚，你再寫一下。其實他另外有個秘書啊，坐得稍微遠一點，也記了，不一定他再記。大體上說這次是頭一次見面，頭一次見面就是我感覺他虛假。

After this, of course, I met him many times. At the time of this first meeting, the Japanese hadn’t invaded China yet. Later, the War of Resistance began. In the North it was the Marco Polo Bridge Incident of July 7 and in the South the August 13 Incident, which forced Chiang to resist Japan. He had no choice. It was with the Xi’an Incident that he decided to abandon the civil war and resist the Japanese. The national government felt the need for the support of society as a whole. The government itself could not resist Japan all alone. So it established a Political Consultative Conference within the Supreme National Defense Conference and invited persons from non-official circles who could represent society, people of some prestige, to be members of this body. I was also appointed to this body. The first time I met Premier Zhou Enlai was at these meetings of this body. At this time, there was in principle a cooperative union between the CCP and the Nationalist Party for resistance against Japan. Actually, it was the CCP that was advocating for resistance against Japan with no more civil war at the beginning. But the Chinese Communists did not by any means participate in the national government, so how did the two parties join hands to resist Japan? It was in this consultative conference and the Supreme National Defense Conference. At this time the name list of the conference had Mao’s name on it, but Mao never attended. Zhou attended. So, the first time I met Mr. Zhou was there at those meetings.以后就見面機會很多，因為這個時候日本人還沒有來中國、侵略中國，后來不是抗日了？抗日一起來，北方就是“盧溝橋七七事變”，南方是“八一三”，這個時候蔣被逼迫著不得不抗戰了。不是有個“西安事變”？他決定放棄內戰，抗日。那么“八一三”打起來了，國民政府感覺到需要廣大社會支持政府，不能單單是政府抗日啊，需要廣大社會的支持啊，所以就在“國防最高會議”之內成立一個“參議會”，請社會方面的人，能夠代表社會的、在社會上有資望的，來做參議會的參議員，那么我就被聘當參議。這個時候可以說一句話，就是我跟周恩來第一次見面就在這個地方，因為這個時候算是國共合作、一同抗日。本來是中共要求抗日嘛，不要打內戰，共同抗日，可是中共方面并沒有參加國民政府，怎么樣子兩黨能夠攜手抗戰？就是在這個參議會，在國防最高會議里頭參與抗日的事情。這個時候名單上發表的有毛澤東，而毛沒有來，周來，所以我跟周公第一次見面是在這個地方見的面。

Who else participated in the meetings? Huang Yanpei, who was famous in the Shanghai region. Shen Junru, who had just been released from detention, was also there. Shen was a member of the National Salvation Society, which advocated for an end to civil war and resistance to Japan. He had been arrested and kept in prison in Suzhou, for Chiang had felt that “you were all going with the Communists.” But at this time, the two parties had started to cooperate, so the “Seven Gentlemen,” Shen included, were released, and they participated in the Political Consultative Conference. Hu Shi also participated, and so did Zhang Boling of Nankai University, the great military scholar Jiang Fangzhen and the famous Peking University scholar Fu Sinian, andso on. They also found people familiar with diplomacy, for linking up internationally with allies against Japanese. So, because of this, they asked Yan Huiqing and Shi Zhaoji to participate too. They also asked several Nationalist Party veterans who had long been alienated from the Nanjing government, such as Ma Junwu, a Guangxi native. All were asked to participate in the Political Consultative Conference under the Supreme National Defense Conference.那么參議會里頭找來的還有些個什么人呢？有黃炎培，在上海一帶很有名的；有剛剛放出來的沈鈞儒，沈鈞儒是救國會了，救國會就是主張趕緊抗日、不要打內戰的，本來他都是把沈鈞儒扣在蘇州監獄里邊，他認為你們是跟共產黨跑的，可是這個時候兩黨合作都要抗日了，所以把沈鈞儒“七君子”都放出來，放出來也參加這個參議會；還有社會有名的人——胡適、天津南開大學的張伯苓，還有一個有名的軍事學家叫蔣方震，還有北大學生里頭很出名的傅斯年，如此之類。他還找一些通習外交的人，這個時候抗日根據國際要采取聯系，所以他就把顏惠慶、還有一個施肇基都請來。國民黨的老輩，久已跟南京政府很疏遠了，可是國民黨的老輩，像是那個馬君武，廣西人，都請來，這個就叫做“國防最高會議參議會”。

At this time, my contact with Chiang increased somewhat from this conference on. Chiang was busy with directing military operations, however, and so Wang Jingwei was chairman of the conference. We held all of our meetings at night, because the Japanese planes were bombing. Wang presided over meetings, as Chiang was very busy with military affairs. At the end of a meeting, Chiang dispatched a secretary of his to see me, and said that Chairman Chiang [as Chair of the Military Affairs Committee] invited me to go to his official residence the next morning at a certain time to talk, e.g., 8 o’clock. I agreed to see him, of course. The secretary approached me right as I was coming out of the meeting hall together with Jiang Fangzhen, so Jiang Fangzhen knew that I would be seeing Chiang the next morning. So he said to me, “When you see Chiang tomorrow, tell him that I want to go to Shandong to inspect matters related to defense.” I agreed. So, when I was meeting with Chiang, I told him this on behalf of Mr. Jiang Fangzhen. Chiang agreed, and asked me to go together with Jiang Baili [Jiang Fangzhen’s sobriquet] to Shandong.這個時候是我跟蔣接觸稍微多一點的時候，從這兒來的。我現在就是在這個會議上，蔣嘛因為他要指揮軍事了，軍事上忙得很，所以這個會是汪做主席。我們開會都是在夜間開會，為什么呢？因為日本的飛機都來轟炸了。因為汪主持這個會，蔣自己忙軍事，很忙，就在我們開會的時候，蔣派一個人，派一個他的秘書吧，來在我們散會的時候看我，說蔣委員長請梁先生明天早晨幾點鐘，比如 8 點鐘，到官邸見面。那么我當然答應了。這個時候我剛好從會里跟蔣方震一起出來，蔣方震當然就知道我明天要見蔣了，蔣方震就對我說，明天你去跟蔣見面的時候，你替我說，我愿意去山東，去山東看一看山東的防務、國防。我說好，所以等到我跟蔣見面的時候，我就替蔣方震說了這個話。他說很好，就請你——就請我啊，你陪著蔣百里先生去山東視察。

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梁漱溟 艾愷 艾愷外語教學與研究出版社