這個世界會好嗎？Has Man a Future? –Dialogues with the Last Confucian

作者簡介：梁漱溟，著名思想家、教育家、社會活動家。艾愷，美國哈佛大學博士，師從費正清、史華慈，當代最活躍、最有影響力的漢學家之一，芝加哥大學歷史系教授。

內容簡介：1980年美國漢學家艾愷采訪中國著名的思想家、哲學家、現代新儒家的早期代表人物梁漱溟的談話實錄，并由艾愷譯成英文；品評李大釗、陳獨秀、毛澤東、周恩來、蔣介石、胡適等風云人物，回顧了任教北大、從事鄉建運動、創建民主同盟等傳奇經歷。

My impression of Hu Zongnan and Chen Cheng我對胡宗南和陳誠的印象

Liang: It was pretty good that I would go to Shandong with Jiang Baili. [Later] Jiang Baili told me that there was someone who wanted to meet me, and asked me if I was willing to see him. I asked him who it was. He answered that it was one of Chiang’s generals, Hu Zongnan. I answered that I was willing to meet with anyone, no matter whom, especially at this critical moment for the War of Resistance. The greater the degree of solidarity, the greater the chance of success in resisting Japan. He said, “Alright, tomorrow we will pass through Xuzhou . We’ll go together to have a talk with Hu.” The next day, we went by railroad through Xuzhou. Hu Zongnan, his chief of staff, and his secretary general were all waiting at the station for us. We went to Hu’s headquarters and talked the whole night. The next day the same train, at the same time, passed through Xuzhou and we boarded and went on to Shandong. Later in Xi’an, I had some further contact with Hu. He was a politically ambitious man. He didn’t want to be just a military man so he wanted to make friends with us.梁： 那么很好了，我就要陪著蔣百里先生去山東了，蔣百里先生就問我，說有一個人呢，想同你見面，你可以不可以見他啊？我說是誰啊？他說是蔣介石的一個大將，叫胡宗南。我說是什么人 都可以見，特別這個時候要共同抗日嘛，那么大家越能夠聯合、越能夠團結越好嘛。他說那么樣子，我明天從南京坐火車路過徐州——胡宗南正駐在徐州，我們在徐州下車，同他見面談一談。后來果然我們一同坐火車路過徐州的時候，胡宗南帶著他的參謀長，帶著旁的什么秘書長，很多人，在車站等候，接我們。我跟蔣百里就一同到他的司令部，住一夜，談話。然后第二天，火車在同一個鐘點再過來的時候，我們上車去山東。后來我跟胡宗南還有一些接觸，后來在陜西西安有些接觸。胡宗南他是一個在政治上有野心的人，他并不是想單做一個軍人，所以他愿意同我們交朋友。

I also had contact with the subordinate that Chiang Kai-shek trusted most, Chen Cheng. This was at the time of the retreat back to defend Wuhan. Chen Cheng was living at Wuhan University. Wuhan University was located in Luojiashan. Chen lived there. He asked me to his house for dinner and to talk. He was one of the most powerful of Chiang Kai-shek’s subordinates. A car was sent to pick us up. So we got in and went to his house at Luojiashan within Wuhan University campus—the university had been closed. He was not in. But after a few minutes of sitting there waiting, he came in. He talked, but talked about his own topic continually—criticizing, maligning and berating the Minister of the Interior, Huang Shaohong. He said that Huang was a big dummy. He kept talking continually and didn’t let me get a word in edgewise. He just kept on, in a very disorganized manner, very angrily. Later one of his staff came in to report that it was time for dinner. So he invited us to go in to dinner. Now, during the time he was eating, of course, he couldn’t talk much, but he was by no means quiet. After he finished eating, he continued his non-stop diatribe, giving me no chance at all to say anything.跟蔣的部下、蔣的很信任的人，比如陳誠，陳誠也同我有往來，那是退守武漢的時候了。退守武漢的時候，陳誠他住在武漢大學里頭，武漢大學那個地名叫珞珈山，他自己住在珞珈山武漢大學里邊，他請我到他家里頭吃飯、談話，他算是蔣下面很有力量的一個人。車來接我們，我當然就坐車去了。到他住的地方珞珈山武漢大學里邊——學校是停了，他沒回來，可是坐了有剛剛幾分鐘他就回來了。回來了他就談話了，他老是談話，老是說他的話，老是罵人、批評人，特別批評那個內政部長黃紹竑，他說那是個草包，這個樣子。幾乎沒有空讓我說話，我插不上話去，因為他老說、老說，話說得很亂，氣很盛。后來伺候的人來報告，說是要開晚飯了，請進去吃飯，吃飯的時候嘛，不能多說話了，他也還不閑著，吃完飯后還是說話，我想跟他說的話，幾乎沒有空說。

I took the opportunity when he was speaking relatively slowly to say something because I wanted to say something about the condition of my people. We had brought out some men and rifles from Shandong, over 800 men and more than 800 rifles. We also had tens of thousands of silver dollars in cash. As the administrative commissioner and the county magistrate, we brought out the cash and the armed militia. So I told him that we wanted to go back to Shandong. The militia wanted to fight its way back home. Finally, after much effort, I brought up the matter by cutting off his tirade. So, after this experience with him I felt that he wasn’t a man of great ability; he was too shallow and superficial. This is an example of the contact I had with people on Chiang’s side. Later on, in Taiwan, Chen Cheng was “vice president” and so on.當然我還是勉強趁著一個機會，他話稍微慢一點了，我馬上說一句話跟他，因為我是要介紹我這方面的人的情況，我們從山東帶出來一批人，并且都是帶著槍的，武裝的，八百多人，有八百多條槍，還帶著十幾萬塊錢——因為我們在山東做專員、做縣長有現款、有壯丁，都帶出來了。后來嘛跟他說，說我們要回去，我們從山東出來的人要打回老家去，為了跟他說這個事情。僅僅是末了當他話稍微停下來的時候，我才能把我的話跟他說。這樣看起來，這個人不是十分有能力的人，太淺，太粗淺。這也是蔣方的人我接觸的一個例子。后來不是到臺灣他還是做“副總統”嗎？

Chiang Kai-shek’s greatest contribution 蔣介石最大的貢獻

Liang: When General George Marshall came to China to help make peace between the two parties, I had a lot of contact with him. He came to see me at my house once. That was when I was living at Lanjiazhuang in Nanjing. That was where the headquarters of the Democratic League was located. I couldn’t speak English, so a friend of mine, Ye Duyi, interpreted for me. I felt that General Marshall was a truly good person. He was a devoutly religious man. Chiang Kai-shek was really bothered by him. Didn’t Chiang go hide himself off at Lushan? At the time, the weather was not really all that hot. Of course, Lushan was a cool place, but he didn’t go off there to escape the heat. He wanted to hide from Marshall. This put General Marshall in a bad position. He repeatedly went to Lushan. He went up to Lushan nine times.梁：馬歇爾元帥不是來中國嗎？極力要促成中國國內的和平。我跟馬帥有多次見面，他還到我住的地方來過一次，我住南京蘭家莊的時候，民盟的總部，來過一次。我不會講英語了，都由一個朋友——姓葉的葉篤義，替我做翻譯。我對于馬帥，我覺得他這個人是很好。他是一個信仰宗教信得很真的人。他很為蔣介石所苦——蔣介石他躲到廬山上去，天氣并不一定很熱，廬山固然涼快，可是他不是為涼快去廬山，他是躲人，他要躲馬帥。那么這個樣子馬帥就辛苦了，他一趟上廬山，再一趟上廬山，他九上廬山。

Alitto: Speaking of Chiang Kai-shek hiding out, in your opinion, after the War of Resistance was concluded, it seemed he… In terms of this kind of behavior he exhibited in those days, it would seem that it was very stupid. He brought trouble upon himself and so in the end exited the stage pitifully. In your opinion, why did Chiang act so stupidly? Did he just underestimate the strength of the Communists or was he just stupid?艾： 說到蔣介石躲人啊，依您看呢，他是抗戰結束以后啊，他好像??現在看他當年這個行為，好像很笨啊，是自己找自己的麻煩而終于下場也很慘。依您看呢，是因為他估計共產黨的力量估計得太低的關系呢，還是因為他人就是很笨呢？

Liang: Well, he was not stupid, all right. However, if it was stupidity, it was just because he was so selfish.梁： 笨是不笨，如果說笨呢，他就是太自私。

Alitto: Selfish? The basic problem was that he was selfish?艾： 自私？基本的問題是他自私？

Liang: He didn’t trust people. His word never...梁： 他不信任人，從來說話??

Alitto: Meant anything?艾： 都不算話。

Liang: Right! He acted this way thinking himself to be very clever. But what he did was to make himself utterly isolated.梁： 對啊。他自己以為這樣最得計，其實是弄得眾叛親離。

Alitto: So, in your view, if after the War of Resistance had concluded, he had been earnestly reasonable with the Communist Party and with the Third Parties, then possibly he would have been able to organize a coalition government. Was it just because he wanted to maintain his dictatorial powers that he refused to be reasonable? Because he thought that he had more troops, had good weapons, he had an air force, the CCP didn’t have an air force—no matter what, the Nationalist was much stronger than the CCP. So because of this, he then refused. He looked down on the CCP. For example in 1938, the CCP was obviously quite strong, especially in North China and the Northeast. Why didn’t he see that the situation was not good, and so make concessions or at least be relatively earnest in the peace talks?艾： 那您看他是，就是說抗戰結束以后，假如他比較認真地和共產黨、和第三方面的人比較講理，那說不定會組成一個聯合 政府。那么會不會就是因為他要保存他這個獨裁的權力啊，而結果可以說是拒絕講理？因為他想：我這個軍隊多啊，武裝也好啊，空軍是有的，他們沒有空軍，無論怎么樣，我們比他們強得多。就是因為這個，他就拒絕，輕視共產黨，比如到了民國二十七年，共產黨尤其在華北、在東北很明顯地是力量不小。他為什么不看情況不妙而讓步，或者起碼比較認真地和談呢？

Liang: His attitude towards the peace talks was to take any small advantage. So, one time Premier Zhou came to him with a proposal that was a concession on the CCP’s part, and thought that this would satisfy him. But Chiang came back and said that there was still a problem, and this problem called for a further concession from the CCP. So he kept pressing them continually. The CCP knew quite well that it did not have as much power as Chiang did, and knew that it didn’t have international recognition as the government of China as Chiang did, or have American help. So, the situation was like, as the saying in ancient Chinese goes, “troops full of righteous indignation will certainly prevail; troops full of pride will certainly be defeated.” It was the CCP’s troops that had been continually pressed and filled with righteous indignation.梁： 他在和談上他采取的方針、策略，就是他多占一分便宜就多占一分便宜。有一次，周恩來代表共產黨讓步了，讓步了以為可以滿足他了，他說還有一個問題，在這個問題上又讓步了，還有一點，如此，就是這樣。他就是老是逼人，共產黨也自己知道自己沒有他那樣大的力量了，沒有像他還有國際的??，國際承認他是中國，美國的幫助啊，所以中國這個老話，老話講軍事上啊，“哀兵必勝，驕兵必敗”，你驕傲，剛好就是共產黨是哀兵，受逼迫的。

Alitto: During the peace negotiations you must have had some opportunities to speak sincerely to Chiang, and try to persuade him to be more serious and conscientious with the peace talks.艾： 那這個談判過程中，您也許有機會很誠懇地勸蔣介石，要他認真一點吧？

Liang: I had great difficulty in getting to see him. Not only did I have difficulty, even the Nationalist Party leaders had difficulty in seeing him. It was a big headache for General Marshall. He hated Chiang. Didn’t he serve as Secretary of State after returning to the U.S.? At that time, he wanted no part of helping Chiang Kai-shek.梁： 我們很難見到他呀。不但我們很難見到他，就是國民黨的政府負責的人，見他都不容易。馬帥很頭疼，很恨他，回到美國之后不是擔任國務卿嗎？那個時候，他完全不想幫助蔣介石。

Alitto: A lot of Americans who had lived in China for a long time felt that way. For example, there was John Stuart Service. He was in Chongqing. He also read my book manuscript and urged me to publish it without revision. He wrote a few words in it, saying that this book wasn’t bad, and so on. Another example was John Patton Davies. I don’t remember his Chinese name. Still another was my teacher John Fairbank. They all said that Chiang was wrong, and that the Chiang regime was corrupt. A lot of Americans feared a Communist success, especially feared the Soviet Union; they thought that the CCP was nothing but a tool of the Soviet Union.Do you think that Chiang Kai-shek made any contribution at all to China and the Chinese Revolution? We have regarded his performance, especially after the War of Resistance, as terrible. As for his overall career, is there any contribution to China?艾： 有很多住中國住得久的人，例如謝偉思，他是在重慶，他也看了我這個，就是因為他看了這個稿子，他勸我就不要再改啊，立刻出版，在這里寫了幾個字，就說這本書不錯什么的。謝偉思是一位，還有戴維斯，中文名字我不記得，姓戴維斯，連費正清啊，他們都說蔣介石是錯的，而且政府是腐敗的，沒有用處。美國很怕共產黨，尤其怕的是蘇聯，以為中國共產黨就是蘇聯的這個走狗啊，或者它的貓手、貓爪。您覺得蔣介石對中國、對中國革命有沒有什么貢獻呢？我們已經談到了他，尤其在抗戰以后啊，實在不行，不過就是說他的整個的事業了，會不會對中國有什么貢獻？

Liang: His greatest contribution was to make the CCP successful. If he had been a bit more trustworthy, if his character were somewhat better, the CCP would have been unable to beat him. His greatest contribution was to have created the CCP success.梁： 他最大的貢獻哪，最大的貢獻是給機會讓共產黨??他造成了共產黨的成功。如果他這個人還有一點信用，人格還好一點，共產黨打不過他啊。所以他最大的貢獻，就是造成共產黨的成功。

Zhou Enlai is a paragon周恩來是一個完人

Alitto: You were also familiar with Zhou Enlai.艾： 周恩來您也??

Liang: I knew him very well.梁： 很熟了。

Alitto: What dealings or contact did you have with him?艾： 您和他有過什么來往、接觸？

Liang: It was in politics. First it was in Chongqing. Because North and East China had fallen; we all lived in Chongqing. At that time, I had dealings with him, very close dealings. Later Japan was defeated, and all of us went to Nanjing. The Chinese Communist Party office was at Meiyuanxincun. Our Democratic League office was at Lanjiazhuang. At this time we were coordinating peace talks between the two [major] parties....梁： 就是在政治上嘛。先是在重慶了，因為中國華北、華東都淪陷了，我們大家都在重慶，那個時候來往了，來往得很密。后來日本失敗了，大家都去到南京了，中共的辦事處在梅園新村，我們民盟在蘭家莊，這個時候兩黨和談我們彼此是配合的??

Alitto: Do you have other evaluations or views of Premier Zhou?艾： 您對周恩來總理有什么別的評價、看法？

Liang: When the two major parties were conducting peace talks, General Marshall from the U.S. very much wanted to make the two major parties have peace talks. I was the general secretary of the Democratic League. I was also engaged in this work, and wanted to pursue domestic peace and establish a new China. At the time Mr. Zhou was first in Chongqing and later in Nanjing, so we were very close, and I had the most dealings with him. Finally there was a transitional government organized, with 40 members: 20 Nationalist Party members, and the remaining 20 positions divided up among the parties outside the Nationalist Party. That book I just mentioned discusses this question. What did it discuss? That the Nationalist Party allowed the Communist Party and the Democratic League 13 positions. Whether it should be 13 or 14 was still debated.梁： 在兩大黨和談的時候，美國來的是馬歇爾元帥，他是很想促成兩黨的和談的。我是作為民盟的秘書長，我也是做這個工作，想求得國內的和平、建設新中國，所以那個時候周公先在重慶、后在南京，我們是最密切的，往來最多的。最后要組織一個過渡的政府，國民政府委員40名，國民黨占20名，剩下的20名國民黨以外的大家分，我剛才提到的那個書里講到這個問題，講到什么呢？講到國民黨許給共產黨跟民盟13 名，是 13 名嘛還是 14 名嘛，還在那里爭論??

The Chinese Democratic League was not one group, it was an alliance, and so he made this gesture. The Nationalist Party’s Central Daily News and some Shanghai newspapers ridiculed the Democratic League as the tail of the Communist Party, as going along with the Communist Party. I made a statement to the press that the Communist Party was following the Democratic League’s lead, and not the vice versa. What did I mean by that? I meant that the Communist Party was a revolutionary party. It was an armed party that wanted to seize all of China. We had urged them to renounce armed force and cooperate with the Nationalist Party in creating a new China. We had urged it to renounce armed force. It had agreed to do so, and so it agreed with me to follow the path of the Democratic League, and it was by no means a case of me following the Communist Party. This was discussed in that little book. But one thing was quite clear: at the time the Democratic League was cooperating with the Communist Party. The Nationalist Party totally regarded us as doing so.中國民盟不是個單一的團體，是個聯合的，所以它作出這個樣的一個表示。這樣一個表示呢，國民黨的《中央日報》，還有上海的報紙就嘲笑民盟，說民盟是共產黨的尾巴，跟著共產黨跑的。我就有一個聲明，對新聞記者的談話，我說是共產黨隨著民盟走的，而不是我們隨著共產黨走。怎么樣子說這個話呢？因為共產黨??是革命黨，它是有武裝的，它要奪取整個的中國的，我們是勸它放棄武力，跟國民黨在建設新中國上可以合作。是我們勸它放棄武力的，它同意了，所以是它同意了我的話，走民盟的這個路子，并不是我跟著共產黨走，那個本子上都講了這個話。但是一個很清楚的事情就是，當時民盟跟共產黨是合作的，國民黨完全是這樣來看待我們的。

Alitto: Leaving aside Premier Zhou’s political aspects, what kind of man was he?艾： 周總理政治方面以外，是個什么樣的人啊？

Liang: I was very close to Premier Zhou. I am confident that I understood him. In ancient Chinese, the best person was called a “paragon,” and I totally regarded Mr. Zhou as a paragon. There was nothing you could find fault with, no matter whether in his public or private morals. For example, he and Deng Yingchao had no children. Madame Deng seemed to have said that he could take another woman, but he didn’t want to do so. In this area of marital relations, which was a private matter, he was very clean. In his work, he helped Chairman Mao in dealing with both internal matters of China and with the international area. One could say that before and especially after the founding of the state, if Premier Zhou was not handling things internal and foreign, well, Mao alone could not have handled it and would have failed; he relied on Zhou for both. Zhou worked like blazes. Everyone knows that he sometimes did not eat; he had no time to eat, so he was given something in the car and had a few bites, and immediately took off. He would work into the night. He received many foreigners, straight into the night, and slept very little, and didn’t care much about food. One could say that he gave himself completely to his nation. 梁： 我同周總理算是很熟悉了，我自信我很了解他。中國古話說最好的人叫做“完人”，完全，我看周公是一個完人，無論是在公德方面、私德方面，都沒有可以挑剔的。比如他同鄧穎超沒有孩子，鄧好像說是你可以結合另外一個女人，他就不要。在這種男女夫婦的關系上——這算是一個私人的事情，他很干凈。在工作方面他幫助毛主席，無論是國內應付各方面、國際上應付各方面，全是他啊，沒有周那不行的。新中國，可以說從建國前夕，特別是建國后，沒有周總理應付內、應付外，那毛一個人辦不了，成不了事情，都是靠周啊。周是拼命的，最辛苦了。大家都知道，他常常是沒有法子吃飯，沒有空吃飯，跑到汽車上人家給他送來飯，吃幾口，馬上就開走了。夜里頭都辦公啊。許多外國人，他會客，一直到深夜啊，睡眠很少，吃東西也很不講究，勉勉強強，可以說是把自己一切全貢獻給國家了。

If China hadn’t had Zhou these several decades, it would not have succeeded. Zhou best understood Mao’s wishes. My critique of him is that he was by nature a second fiddle. He asked Mao for instructions practically constantly and for everything. Mao would hint at something and he would immediately understand. Mao didn’t have to say much. But he [Zhou] himself had very few specific opinions. He went along with Mao completely. One could say that he was Mao’s best assistant. He was number two, never the first in command. An old Chinese saying is “a sage ruler and a worthy prime minister.” He was the virtuous prime minister. When Zhou died, people from all sides, even the common people… There was no one who didn’t miss him, admire him and grievefor him. Even when Mao died, it wasn’t like this. Of the three [Mao, Zhou and Zhu], Zhou died first. Many people honored his memory in front of Tian’anmen.中國過去的幾十年沒有周是不行的，國際上、國內都是靠周。周呢，最能懂得毛的意思，我對他的評價：他是天生的第二把手。他是幾乎隨時、任何一件事情他都請示毛，毛一點，他就明白了，不要多說。可是他自己很少自己的明確的主張，他完全跟著毛走，可說是毛的最好最好的助手了。他是第二把手，不是第一。中國古話有??“圣君賢相”，他是個賢相。他故去了，各方面的人啊，乃至老百姓，沒有人不想他的，沒有人不佩服他的、追念他的。毛故去都沒有這個情況。他們三個人周是最先故去的，在天安門前頭多少人紀念他啊。

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他只有中學文憑，卻被蔡元培請到北京大學任教；他成長于京城，卻長期致力于鄉村建設；他一生研究儒家學說，然而內心向往佛家生活……“梁先生有些類似于甘地這樣的圣者，通過自己的不斷奔走感化大地，于改造人生與社會中踐履一己的感悟”

梁漱溟 艾愷 艾愷外語教學與研究出版社